Professor John Robertson OBA, retired Research Professor, Faculty Research Ethics Chair, Associate Dean for Quality Assurance in Education, Head of Department of Curriculum Studies (30 staff), Senior Lecturer in Educational Technology, Lecturer in Education, School Teacher (Primary), PhD, Master of Education
Professor Lindsay Paterson is in the Scotsman again, as he often is, to cast doubt on the competence of Scottish teachers to assess their own pupils continuously as opposed to his preferred snapshot exam method. Once more he returns to the Pisa scores he loves to use to mark us down. He is, to my knowledge, the only serious educationist publishing in peer-review journals who thinks the Pisa scores are of any value at all. I’ll come back to Pisa scores below but first and perhaps explaining his odd attachment to them:
Why is Paterson not an expert at all? This:
Professor of Educational Policy at Edinburgh University, Lindsay Paterson is a statistician with a background in agricultural and medical research using statistical methods. He has absolutely no experience of teaching in schools or in teacher education methods. He has no experience of school management or of research into the curriculum other than in counting assessment data. He’s just a jumped up bean-counter. Despite that, he’ll turn up on request, rent-a-gob, to say something bad about any Scottish Government decision that involves numbers.
So, to Pisa scores:
Here’s what an experienced, retired, Glasgow head teacher, has to say about Pisa scores:
By Alasdair Macdonald
The issue is with PISA. It has very little statistical rigour and offers nothing in the way of improving educational practice.
I was a secondary school head teacher at the time it and other ‘measures’ were introduced in education in Scotland in other places. I and my colleagues argued against it.
Educational provision, like everything else, ought to be continuously evaluated, partly to get evidence on whether it is achieving the aims set out for it and partly to get information on areas which require attention. However, there are, literally, hundreds of aspects to be measured and many of these aspects are not measurable by things like tests of arithmetical competence. Such tests are part of the picture but their results are not the full picture (insofar as a full picture can be obtained) Most of the data have to be set in a fairly long time context so that temporary fluctuations can be seen. Usually such temporary fluctuations are easily explainable, in the cases of individual schools.
Such data do, in fact exist. There is a great deal of it and it requires a great deal of care and experience to identify things which are of statistical significance. And things can be significantly ‘good’ as well as ‘poor’.
PISA is of no benefit in this evaluative context. It is an instrument of BLAME and, as such, is a tool of control and compliance over schools and teachers. For some politicians and their media mouthpieces it is a malign instrument which stifles the creativity which is an essential part of teaching.
Some of those in power see such creativity as presenting a threat to their power.
Creativity and the autonomy necessary to be creative can challenge power, but it is the way that people in all walks of life improve things. It is essential in medicine, science, engineering, the arts, social policy, etc.
PISA is a club to beat creativity out of teachers and schools.
Footnote:
Further reading suggested by the Editor –
Interpreting PISA Results: It’s Poverty, Stupid (With a Bit of the iPhone)
As for Scotland performing ‘below’ England? Complete twaddle. See:
The England PISA sample consisted of 201 eligible schools having at least one pupil in this age range. In England, 3,852 pupils from original sample schools and 911 pupils from replacement schools participated. Pupils in participating schools that did not participate are not replaced. 159 agreed to participate, along with a further 32 replacement schools, but 16 schools withdrew before data collection. Data was therefore collected from 143 schools in the original sample and 32 replacement schools. Of this total, nine original sample schools and one replacement school were omitted from the response rate adjudication process, leaving a total of 134 schools from the original sample and 31 replacement schools.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/656dc3321104cf0013fa742f/PISA_2022_England_National_Report.pdf
So, in England, in the end, 165 schools and 4 763 pupils took part.
The Scottish participation, from only a tenth of the pupil population and schools, was:
117 secondary schools participated in the survey, representing a school response rate of 96.4 per cent; exceeding the OECD’s minimum standard of 85 per cent. 3,257 students took part giving a weighted student participation rate of 79.4 per cent, slightly below the student participation technical standard of 80 per cent.
There are 357 secondary schools overall in Scotland so a sample of 32.8% was used.
Only 4 763 pupils in 165 schools took part in England. There are 3 458 secondary schools in England so only 4.7% of them took part. Were they then representative or just maybe, the best performing?
There are roughly 10 times as many 15 year-olds in England yet the sample-size was less than twice.
The Pisa results in England and Scotland are simply not comparable and had the English sample of schools been similarly representative and not so suspiciously selective, we can only guess that Scotland would have performed far better than England.
Talking-up Scotland 'Albatraz' 
I’d, shamefully, forgotten how deeply insightful, inspirational, Alasdair’s thoughts on Pisa are. This won’t be the last, I feel sure, that I quote him.
John
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All my CV BS? I only use it to point to the lack of such in the Scotsman/Herald/BBC Scotland’s fave prof.
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What would the bard make of it today….
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Rather bewildering that a ‘top’ academic https://archive.ph/IHFge should comment on ” As education secretary Jenny Gilruth hailed primary school attainment as the highest on record, Prof Paterson said the results are “statistical fiction”, as if P1 to P6 and S1 to S3 have anything to do with Pisa, let alone what if anything Pisa actually does tell you.
Desperate stuff, but from the Scotsman par for the course…
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What an insightful comment. The same could be said of the Scottish MSM in general – instruments of BLAME and, as such, tools of control and compliance…
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The Scotsman’s ‘top academic’ wheeled in to savage Scottish schools you say………well………..
There was a article in The National yesterday that stated:
” ‘A culture of dependency’: Novelist slams ‘lazy Scots’ in Wall Street Journal”.
Who was the Novelist ?
Alan Massie !
Oh dear, really ?
“A SCOTTISH novelist has criticised his fellow Scots as he described them as “lazy” and claimed that state intervention for those in need has done great “harm” to the country’s work ethic”
“Journalist and author Allan Massie has claimed that many Scots with “ambition and energy” emigrated from the country as he took aim at his fellow countrymen in an interview with the Wall Street Journal“.
“He told the Wall Street Journal: “He thought they didn’t want to work, they just wanted handouts“
(So was the Labour UK government’s recent Welfare Benefits changes just currently for all Scots within Scotland then , as apparently no one elsewhere within the UK is on Benefits and so receives aid from the UK State ?).
“Massie went on to say that due to the industrial collapse in Scotland, which led to widespread unemployment and mass suspicion of capitalism, the “only thought was of the collective” in Scotland”
(“Suspicion of capitalism” Ha Ha……….)
He continued: “Only the state could turn things around, only communal action”
“Thatcher was all about individualism. Scotland was — this was the thinking — about the collective, the state.”
(Individualism ? Don’t make me laugh that was her instigating selfishness really, that’s what she started , the selfish society of Me Me Me , where the weakest were to be thrown under the UK State bus, which is what Massie is doing in this interview to his ‘fellow Scot’s , while only the strongest “capitalists’ would thrive).
“Massie claims the consequence, decades later, was a culture “marked by dependency”.
(Who, as a Nation within the UK, are those whose “dependency” is upon our Scottish Renewable energy’s electricity being syphoned off to them, also previously , and still, we have a UK Treasury’s “dependency” upon the revenue gained from our Scottish Oil ?)
The National described Massie as “an outspoken Unionist and staunch critic of Scottish devolution“
(Staunch indeed)
“He went on to argue that much of the state intervention was understandable, given the great economic pressures Scotland was under, but judged “it did much to harm the Protestant work ethic that had once been so important in Scotland”.
(That’s economic pressures all because of Thatcher and Massie’s UK and OMG the “protestant work ethic” , is he having a Giraffe).
“He went on to say that if independence comes, it might “at least make Scots take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming WM”
(Yes and it means English UK governments at WM will no longer be able to freely steal our electricity and plunder our other resources to enrich their UK Treasury and so they will need to ” “take responsibility for themselves” and “stop blaming” the SNP for what they say are Scotland’s woes , when most of us know who is really to blame for the bloody mess that has existed within their UK and so then negatively impacts Scotland).
Did anyone remember in the Better Together campaign in 2014 the long slogan “Scots are Lazy and have a culture of dependency so better for them if they stay within the UK for the UK State to intervene by giving them State handouts “. Nope neither do I
Also is it not great that a , checks notes, supposed fellow ‘Scot’ travels around the world slagging of his fellow Scots , as in all of us , not just a select few, but all Scots while flying the (only) flag he cares about being the Red, White and a tinge of what he hopes to be the obscured blue part within it.
Is this part of a new series of books by him entitled ‘Scotland is S**** and all Scots are #BAD subsidy Junkies’, I think I’ll give that one a miss , so it’s a No Thanks from me.
Also when he refers to the industrial collapse in Scotland who accelerated that ?
Thatcher and her Tory UK government! (long before Scottish devolution).
Massie rewriting history to suit his BritNat agenda , straight out of the same manual Neil Oliver sources his material as in the book of false recollections studies Ha Ha.
Send in the Witchfinder General to all Scots why don’t you.
BTW guess who owns ‘The Wall Street Journal’ ?
Rupert Murdoch !
Say no more.
Liz S
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O/T apologies
“Douglas Ross MSP said Angela Constance should resign or face being fired after the Scottish government published email exchanges with UK grooming gangs expert Prof Alexis Jay”
That’s Ross , no longer a Tory MP and who is standing down as an MSP next year……….so what’s his beef as surely now he has no ‘political’ skin in the game ? (Or is his obvious inherent spitefulness too strong within him , for him to then be unable to stop S*** stirring constantly as a very Bitter , and soon to be, ‘Has been’ ex Tory politician).
Then the supreme hypocrite Sarwar wades in…..straight after a recent scandal involving his own Labour Shadow education Spokesperson Duncan- Glancy, in him being reported as saying to the BBC ( of course).
“Sarwar says that no issue is out of bounds for the SNP government’s spin”
“Everyone knows Constance should go, he says, adding that Swinney thinks he knows better”
“He says scandals around government ministers in recent years show the SNP holds the people of Scotland in “utter contempt”.
Oh dear, has Sarwar no self awareness as to his Labour party and their numerous scandals, recent ones being Colin Smyth, and allegations also against Foysol Choudhury and then the latest one being Pam Duncan-Glancy.
Duncan_Glancy’s one being the Scandal that had Labour state that the “matter was closed as far as they were concerned” , in that her continued friendship with a convicted sex offender , was now no longer an issue as she resigned but she only resigned after this was exposed in the Daily Record , where they also exposed that Labour knew about this one month before the DR reported upon it, via a whistleblower’s complaint………and they, Labour, did nothing.
Sarwar is on weak ground here, as are the Tories with the awful scandal ridden record of Tory HQ.
But still the BBC are willing accomplices to both of them.
Liz S
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I know its supposed to be the season of “good will etc to all men” etc. But, whenever I see Lindsay Patterson, I cant help thinking that he polishes his head in bees wax furniture polish.
As for his reliance of PISA statistics, its all he can talk about and as others have pointed out they are largely discredited. He is about as relevant as the Scotsman Newspaper in a modern Scotland.
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The PISA scores are arrived at using an algorithm and we all know how they can be manipulated. It is far more interesting and informative to read the detailed report that accompanies the PISA scores. Of course the PISA scores are a gift to journalists and opposition politicians who never mention they are computer generated via an algorithm.
When Lab & LibDems were in power at Holyrood the PISA scores in Literacy and numeracy fell almost 30 points between 2000 to 2006. When the SNP took over they managed to stabilise the scores. A fact acknowledged by the OECD in its report on Scottish Schools in 2015 or thereabouts.
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As I type, Andrew Bowie (Shadow Scotland Secretary) has just started to speak on the St Andrews Day and Scottish Affairs Debate.
Speaking immediately prior to Bowie was Susan Murray (Lib Dem Spokesperson on Scottish Affairs) who trotted out the usual garbage…ferries…NHS… and a particularly mendacious full-frontal on our education system and progress.
I think Liz S has put Murray’s garbage in the bin.
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Susan Murray Lib Dem attacking our Scottish Education system ?
While one of her former HQ party leaders , Nick Clegg , folded like a pack of cards on his pledge to to scrap Tuition fees in England in his UK GE campaign in 2010.
We still have the receipts on that Ms Murray…….it may be in the past but some of us have not forgotten and never will, especially as politicians like her keep assuming they can constantly have the right to attack the SNP, as though they, the Lib Dems themselves, are those who are squeaky clean and so free from any past and current flaws , failures and scandals.
Indeed not only did he, Clegg, betray that political pledge aka a political promise , but when his party were in the coalition government with the Tories , he allowed the Tories to increase Tuition fees in England to £9,000 per year (term)…..did that decision get the Lib Dems blessing……….as then that was a certainly a “mendacious full-frontal on the English (Further) education system” and also a way to hinder the ambitions of many young English students “progress” at English Universities.
But clearly Susan Murray is yet another UK political hypocrite who sits on her moral high horse critiquing others while expecting voters to forgive and forget all of the Lib Dem party sins (too many to list on here).
Give me a break……..been said before on here by others that this is clearly Glass House Politics via that lot on the UK political side.
Liz S
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WE ARE NEVER EVER GOING TO LISTEN TO ANY LIMEY EX TEACHER FROM ENGLAND
SCOTLAND WILL BE INDEPENDENT AND HAVE NO FURTHER NEED TO LISTEN TO ANY GOBBLE DEE GOOK FROM ONESIDED english
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The opposition’s attacks on the present Scottish Government are ramping up! And all the more ‘odd’ then that The National’s coverage of a positive, of news of a new company to operate out of Grangemouth should opt – in its e-mail alert to subscribers and more significantly, in its X post – to inform readers initially ONLY of the role of the UK government in funding the venture.
Only those who opt to go on to read the full article will learn that the Scottish Government is matching Westminster’s cash and that Scottish Enterprise is also heavily involved.
The Scottish Government has issued a press statement today on this and its other funding initiatives at Grangemouth. I wonder how many news outlets will report the details tomorrow?
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I’m afraid I gave up on the National many moons ago.
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Here’s something to watch out for in tonight’s BBC QT.
The audience.
On the BBC QT’s site they have a “Appy to be in the audience” option.
So based on the following questions that they ask you to complete in their questionnaire to apply to be in their audience ,you will see that they know 100% who their audience comprises of , via their political beliefs, based on whom they accept for each episode
(In Scotland , so far , on this programme we have seen what appears to be a far higher amount and more vocal amount of people who are against the SNP , against Scottish independence and so who are then pro UK supporters).
Questions, which are compulsory on this application form have a red asterik, such as :
How did you vote in the EU referendum ?
If there were a General Election tomorrow, for which political party would you be most likely to vote ?
How did you vote in the last GE ?
Are you a member of a political party ? (with options for I’m an active member, I’m a member, but I don’t take an active role and I’m not a member.
Are you, or have you ever been, politically active in any way e.g. held office, attended a political meeting, distributed leaflets, campaigned, stood as a candidate, worked for a political party, supported a campaign group ?
If Yes , please specify.
In a short sentence, can you please tell us about the issue which is most important to you ?
They also note that “Question Time audience members will be requested to come up with TWO questions to be considered for the programme” and also that “It’s important that as many applicants as possible get the chance to be part of a Question Time audience”.
Now I do know that people could lie on the form but why do that, as they may only assume , that when in Scotland, that it’s best not to be pro SNP or pro Indy but I am sure those who are pro UK will declare it loud and clear on their forms.
So let’s see , via others tomorrow, if any feedback that is, whether it is a unevenly balanced audience majority for Reform UK or another UK party , as if it is , well the above questions via the BBC audience application form will make it 100% clear to the BBC and also to the dubious company called Mentorn how they vote and who they vote for………….and the questions that they want to ask also.
Not random selection via just your name, telephone number, email and your address but instead it’s way more deep than that (and so also seemingly a tad too calculating as well #ProUKLoadedAudience) .
Liz S
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‘As for Scotland performing ‘below’ England? Complete twaddle’.
Even the UK government’s own Department of Education has cast doubt on the reliability of England’s PISA results from 2022.
DoE (Sept 18, 2024) What is PISA data and how does it measure students’ success at school? https://educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2024/09/what-is-pisa-data-and-how-does-it-measure-students-success-at-school/?_rt=OHwxfGVuZ2xhbmQgcGVubmFudHMgYW5kIGJhZGdlc3wxNzQwMTQ4MDY0&_rt_nonce=6ce948fb08
‘Between 2006 and 2015 England met all OECD sample requirements. However, the most recent PISA results in England, which examined the performance of students in 2022, did not meet the requirements as outlined by the OECD due to small sample sizes. The covid pandemic impacted schools’ and pupil’s ability to take part.
‘In particular, our published analysis shows that higher performing pupils may be over-represented and pupils eligible for free school meals may be under-represented, some of the 2022 PISA results may subsequently be somewhat higher than they might otherwise be.
‘Caution should therefore be taken when interpreting the findings for England, as the bias may have had a positive impact on both the scores and rankings.’
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The ConDems cut education funding £6Billion a year.
25% mature students left out of (attainment) figures. Life long learning.
Lindsay Paterson is a liar and should be sacked. Can’t count or analyse statistics. A Tory unionists. Lindsay is part of any problem.
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Question Time is a joke.
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