Making a case for a ‘consultative’ referendum

Image Holyrood.com

By Contrary

Being given a choice is how democracy is meant to work.

Here is Joanna Cherry very clearly advocating a ‘consultative’ referendum:

https://mobile.twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1226413267242774529

Now, a couple of things – 1. the Forward as One Intiative to bring forward legal action has put pressure on the SNP (without them having to be politically liable for starting the action) to consider the legal route – well done to everyone that contributed to this and saw its importance (it felt like a hard sell), and well done to Martin Keatings in taking this brave action – and 2. Joanna is relying on the current poll that says Scots are in favour of Holyrood going ahead with a referendum. This poll again was carried out by a Yes blogger / activist or whatever he is – well done to James Kelly for his foresight and taking action – and again it was crowdfunded so well done to everyone that contributed.

Those two things have changed something – the confidence of the SNP to, perhaps, go ahead with something potentially politically risky.

Politically the SNP will wait for opinion to swing in favour of something, that’s how that game is played. We have more freedom to do certain things – that’s what I mean by taking action – that may not be politically expedient.

I am not saying that this means anything will be affected, yet – Joanna Cherry seems to be a fairly rare moderate voice of reason still very focused on the issue of independence, but she has gained the confidence of many people – my point here is that these small steps DO lead to something, and every contribution (time/money/expertise/opinion) is worthwhile even if it doesn’t seem like it at the time. Some things will work, some things won’t, but keep at it, keeping coming up with ideas or supporting others. Anybody advocating sitting back and waiting for someone else to do it all for us is not your friend.

23 thoughts on “Making a case for a ‘consultative’ referendum”

  2. Scotland’s right of self-determination is not in doubt. It needs to be asserted by the Scottish Parliament, not contested in court. The very act of contesting it in court effectively acknowledges that there is some doubt.

    Taking the British government to court is getting the thing the wrong way round. If we are asserting the right of self-determination we must act as if it is assumed and defy the British government to stand up in court to argue for denying our democratic right.

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    1. Forward as One is testing if the *referendum* can be held under the *current devolution* settlement (strangled by the Scotland Act) through the courts, but the uk government has been asked to respond before that. This will clarify the current set-up. It puts the uk government in the awkward position of either saying – yes, Holyrood could always have had the referendum and the section 30 stuff was nonsense – or no, the union is a fallacy, you are a colony, you can never get a say through the devolution settlement. It’s a win-win as far as I can see. In the first case we get the referendum, in the second case opinion polls soar in favour of Indy – then the right to self determination comes into play.

      Independence, and our constitution so blithely ignored, itself is another matter. But that’s not what this court case is about.

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  3. In the current impasse we have nothing to lose and everything to gain from having a CR. Yes it may not be legally binding, many unionists might boycott it but if the turnout is respectable and the result (as I expect is a YES) the it dismantles the case that there is no mandate or appetite for Independence. The argument/complaint by the Unionists that this will have to be funded by the Scot tax payer can be partially offset by a crowd fund appeal which I’m sure will draw in £00k’s.

    All that aside John very much enjoying your (as ever) valuable contribution to the cause and continue to use this to debunk many Unionist blogs on Youtube and beyond. Please keep it going

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  4. Note: the uk has no legal mechanism for any referendum to be LEGALLY binding. They are ALL consultative referendums – all the s.30 order does is make the result POLITICALLY binding. The courts will never have anything to say on the actual outcome of any referendum. (With or without a s.30)

    The media and political narrative on this is just trying to confuse the issue (or, in some cases, simplify), but keep it in mind. I think the ship has sailed on trying to actually change how it’s spoken about now, though.

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      1. You’re welcome, but thank YOU, you make the editorial decision to include something or not, and I prefer it that way, and you provide an open-minded enough platform to allow some leeway on what you present – you should always take the credit for any posts even if it’s a cut and paste job. You provide the platform and do the day job after all. And I’ll get a few extra SFAs I assume from my new Constitutional Correspondent role?

        You know how hit and miss I am, and inconstant, and unreliable. Just a relatively free weekend and terrible weather and in the mood – but I’m really glad you think some of my contributions are useful (considering I was about to shut down into wait-and-see mode too, and was thinking I probably should have done, to give everyone peace!).

        I can see how it can be addictive, keeping posting articles (or potential in my case), but it’s quite time consuming, and easy to get mixed up with stuff, I’ve no idea how you manage to keep it up every day!

        We’ll teach you to understand economics one day too 🙂 (think of the SFA as you new currency,,,)

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  5. The old Chinese curse has it as—“we live in interesting times” because the ruling clique PREFER a placid underclass.

    Remember, it’s the independence movement which make these times “interesting”, and consequently Westminster and their subordinate ( colonial) press, radio and TV work as hard as they can to diffuse our desire for self rule.
    What now? Our English neighbours, with help from indigenous belly crawlers, hate any democratic outcome that threatens their hegemony, so NO, NO, NO is their answer to the ballot box.
    A consultative referendum keeps the pot boiling–refutes the Brit Nat assertion that we are at Peak Nat—“is this the end of the SNP” goes the propaganda. They cannot win at the ballot box so they publish lies. A consultative referendum—asking real people what they think, will call the Brit Nat bluff, and expose the Herod, the Hootsmon, Repressing Scotland+ plus the southern newspapers for the colonial agitprop outlets they actually are.
    Take them on, at the ballot box, in the courts, in their faces.
    Boris thinks it clever to “elevate” Ruthie, but she is already yesterday’s woman, and will lack democratic credentials when the crunch comes.
    Ruthie, Broonie, Wee Wullie, Carlot and whitsisname—-boosted by Boris and Gove—-these are what we will face.

    Can we win against these “Titans”? How can we lose?

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    2. Talking about ‘interesting times’ – the GE election result in the Republic of Ireland certainly indicates that, with SF being the largest party in first preferences and might have got more seats had it put forward more candidates, even on the same first preference vote share. With non-unionist parties having a majority of votes and seats in Northern Ireland in the UK GE in December, perhaps things are shifting south of the Kintyre peninsula.

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  6. Contrary, too kind. Remember if my editorialising offends it will be a cock-up rather anything more serious.

    As for economics, for every economist there is an equal and opposite economist and they’re both wrong?

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  8. Haha, see it’s headlines that make the day – I bet your ‘NHS’ headlines always get a steady number of readers. But I’ll make a note that ‘arsehole’ gets more hits than ‘referendum’. People, eh? [Rolls eyes]

    Heh, yes all economists are wrong,,, well, except the ones with the theory that actually explains what happens now. I guess I didn’t reel you in with my SFA bait then? Oh well. One day.

    I think you should connect with Martin Keatings (forward as one) via Twitter (I’m not there yet), he’s looking to get contributors to his new website, maybe you could give him a plug and guide him to look at your site here? I dunno, for ideas, maybe you could exchange tips on ,,, I dunno, bloggy stuff. His main feed has a ton of really bad jokes on it that I suspect you would find amusing as well, in case you just want a look:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MartinJKeatings/status/1226534025763966977

    I’d been thinking there – after my criticism of the YesScot website etc – that even a good initiative like Martin’s one there won’t really do what I think is needed – if people are to have reassurance and feel more certain about what independence might bring, it needs some kind of endorsement by politicians – they will be the ones effecting change after all, so they need to be on board with ideas, in principle at least. So, even with really good contributions – or even just an ideas forum (with strong moderation) – it won’t gain any legitimacy for informing people if it doesn’t have some kind of backing from the political, which it would have been nice to avoid. Anyway, I’m no doing it myself, so it doesn’t matter!

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  10. Well, I can try with the headline thing – but generally what I write is a stream of consciousness and I rely on you to make sense of it (and your headlines can be entertaining!) – and I don’t want to make your job too easy, where would be the challenge? But I’ll try (always write the title last is the rule eh)

    I have to say that I’m slightly irritated with Peter – he comes on here trolling, effectively putting down people’s efforts in what was meant to be a bit of a self-congratulatory boost (no one else is going to give our efforts recognition), without understanding anything about what had been done – then he goes off armed with actual information and writes his own blog on the subject! ,,, I have other irritations there but I’ll leave it at that.

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  11. Pingback: Strong support for Indyref2, 'great' minds and plummeting crime killing journalism? – Talking-Up Scotland II

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