99.95% for Yes (Ja): Lessons from the past for Scotland’s Indy infighters

A postcard from around the time of the Norwegian plebiscite. Ja, vi elsker dette landet (“Yes, we love this country”)

Reflecting on the current media reports of infighting among the three pro-Indy parties, I thought there might be lessons from the recent past or from elsewhere for the current crop in Scotland.

I knew, of course, that on the way to Irish independence, only 100 years ago, that pro-independence groups had fought a bloody civil conflict among themselves, putting the Sturgeon/Salmond spat into a bit of perspective.

In Catalonia, there are four pro-independence parties and splits between them have weakened support. Although collectively they won 51% of the vote in the 2021 regional elections, only 53% of the electorate turned out. That’s an obvious lesson for our three – shut-up about Alex Salmond.

In 1905, 99.95% of Norwegian citizens vote to dissolve the ‘union’ with Sweden. The so-called union was, of course, remembered as have been imposed after military defeat in 1814. There were few divisions within the movement or the newspapers, though the leftists were more ready to fight if the Swedes came on heavy. That’s another obvious lesson for our three – shut-up about Alex Salmond.

So, to conclude, shut up about Alex Salmond and concentrate your fire on the enemy.

52 thoughts on “99.95% for Yes (Ja): Lessons from the past for Scotland’s Indy infighters”

  1. Indeed. Democracy requires more than formal inclusion, it requires substantive participation which is denied to Scots in Brexitania. So the enemy is Westminster, and all those who place British nationalism and the conventions of British constitutionalism, above international law and human rights.

    Rights-based approaches and beyond : challenges of linking rights and participation
    https://opendocs.ids.ac.uk/opendocs/handle/20.500.12413/4084

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    1. No argument with the point, John, but your last post stuck the boot into Nicola. It’s terrible hypocrisy then to tell us to shut up about Alex and concentrate fire upon the enemy.

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  3. Anent the Irish independence, I was surprised when I visited the museum in Dublin (an annexe to the Gallery of Modern Art) with the memorabilia of the period from 1916 onwards, just how many different pro-independence groups there were. The Civil War came about as a result of a conflict between those who supported the “Free State’ which was established in 1922 after negotiations with Westminster and those who wanted to continue fight to achieve full independence, which came about in 1949.

    I hope that we in Scotland can attain independence without the bloodshed arising, mainly from the murderous attitude of the British establishment for centuries, and, which, to a fair extent continued through the ‘Troubles” until c2000. However, we must be aware of the sheer nastiness of the UK ‘deep state’.

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  4. “Friends will believe in your potential, your enemies will make you live up to it”!–Tim Fargo.

    Or, Oscar Wilde—” I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their good intellects”.
    Obviously ENEMY intellects ain’t what they used to be.
    Dewar, Tam Dalziel, Jo Grimond, Buchanan-Smith, Robin Cooke, George Younger et al. No equivalent these days.

    More dangerous are our frenemies–the media which pretend neutrality, the columnists who pretend to be YESSERS but only ever attack pro-indy people. The web sites which have turned to the dark side.

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  5. Ja, Aye, Qui, Da. All sound about right.

    We only have one constitutional enemy, the Westminster establishment. Internal YES division is about different views of policy or individuals. None are important only the goal of Freedom. Once we are Free then we can lay internal politics once again. Please everyone, focus on the main event.

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    1. The criticism you are referring to was John having a mild go at Nicola because she had three times now publicly attack AS. She needs to shut up at attacking any Indy party. AS has not attacked NS. By the way I support Nicola and wish AS had stayed retired from politics.

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      1. AS doesn’t have to attack NS his attack dog does it all for him. AS has never distanced himself from his articles. Prominent members of ALBA frequently have articles on Wos.

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    4. John
      Well said, and to put in military terms
      As we now stand upon the field of battle
      Ready to engage armed only with a pencil
      You have expressed the most simplest of advice which is critical in determining the outcome as to whose pencils are the most numerous and effective in seizing and winning the day
      I give you a most excellent example to demonstrate
      Upon the eve of the Battle of Waterloo
      Wellington asked his Adjutant to leave his tent and go for a little stroll,mainly for some fresh air but to clear the head
      And whilst strolling through the camp of the troops under his command, his Adjutant stopped and asked Wellington this
      Well then tomorrow seals everyone’s fate and we have been preparing for this day for a very long time.What do you think our chances are.
      Wellington took a deep breath and said
      I do not know because i have done all I can possubly do to be ready and pointed to a group of troops idling about nearby, Go and ask them because if their answer and attitude are wrong tomorrow is lost
      Attitude Attitude and who has the correct one shall prevail

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      1. Ns is fighting an election campaign. She must try to get a majority for her party. AS showed her no mercy in his allegations. If alba or should I say AS ba gets enough seats to bargain I suspect he will be uncooperative

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  7. We also need to shut up about Nicola as well, how she has kept her sanity during this past year is a wonder and all we get now is the Indy parties getting stuck into each other rather than against the real opposition. Sad day when Paul Kavanagh has to call it a day. Must make so many “Indy” supporters so proud.

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  8. From an article I wrote more than two years ago.

    The closest analogy may be the dissolution of the political union between Norway and Sweden. A union which was, in some significant respects, similar to that between Scotland and England. Certainly, it was the cause of the same kind of tensions between the two nations.

    With all the usual caveats about the dangers of simplification, the story starts, as all such stories must, with the nation that wishes to dissolve the union breaking the rules which bind it together. Norway declared its intention to set up its own consular service thus breaching the terms of the political union which reserved foreign policy to Sweden. Sweden refused to recognise the legislation passed by the Norwegian parliament and the Norwegian government resigned; provoking a constitutional crisis when it proved impossible to form a new government.

    To resolve the issue of Norway’s constitutional status, the Storting (Norwegian parliament) voted unanimously to dissolve the political union with Sweden. This was on 7 June 1905. Crucially, in order to seize total control of the process, Norway avoided the offer of a negotiated settlement which would have allowed Sweden a measure of influence. Instead, the Storting immediately scheduled a referendum for 13 August – around nine weeks after the vote to dissolve the union.

    That referendum resulted in a ‘Yes’ vote of 99.5%.

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    1. Peter A Bell
      And such may be termed as
      1 A plan B
      Or
      2.A Route Map to Independence
      Tis not in the REAL power of Westminster to say NO
      The power lies with the people and expressed through the democratically representatives to whose vote they gave

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    1. Well, what did he expect, Alex M?

      He wouldn’t take Alba’s side, didn’t encourage back-stabbing or bad-mouthing and, shall we say, didn’t appear to conform to their ideas of acceptable. /S

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  11. 19C Mass Home Rule movement in Ireland led by Protestant landowner’s. Charles Stuart Parnell. In Ireland and Scotland it was forbidden (Catholic) to own a horse (Transport). To own a sword (Defence) wear tartan/clothing (identity). etc. Landownership was limited.

    The Illegal Partition Ireland 1923. Universal Suffrage 1928. Irish could have voted for independence. Waiting 5 years. The troubles caused by Westminster unionist lasted over 70 years. The Northern Ireland Assembly 1998. After Bloody Sunday.
    Trouble starting up again because of Brexit. The Tories were warned.

    In Catalonia 1 Million voters had no vote. (EU citizens?). In Spain EU migrant residents are allowed to vote in local and regional elections. Not in National elections or Referendums. People voted or abstained against a vote to have a referendum. Voted against or abstained in a Referendum.

    British migrants in Spain who voted Brexit are being subject to limited residency. To their surprise.

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    3. Gordon
      With respect I must correct you
      Brits who had permanent residency in Spain or for that matter any other EU country were DENIED a vote on Brexit
      Another subtle way the dice were loaded
      I have a 2nd home in Spain and the vast majority of Ex pats in Spain are fuming
      And spitting blood at how Brexit was done

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  13. Weegingerdug will be back when Paul is feeling better. He needs to look after his health. The most important thing. Have a rest to recuperate. Sensible,

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  14. As you know John, I’m an Admin on a long established pro-SNP/Indy site on Facebook “We Support an SNP Government” .. in the light of the news on Paul Kavanagh this morning I have written this … “JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT IT COULDN’T GET ANY WORSE!
    As a Team on “We Support …” we decided a couple of days ago to try and post and encourage more positive pro-SNP News and more anti-Unionist News & humour (often the best weapon), rather than drop into the abyss of falling out with pro-Alba/Salmond supporters.
    So the news this morning that pro-Alba/Salmond supporters have forced Paul Kavanagh (The Wee Ginger Dug) off Social Media is devastating & reprehensible.
    One so-called Indy Supporter actually wrote to him and said …
    ” “I wish you had died instead of your dog.”
    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2021/04/05/stepping-back-from-the-fray/

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    1. bewarethejabberwork
      All straight out the script writers play book of our colonial masters and from their 1st And cardinal rule
      Divide & Rule
      Tis the only weapon they are left with now in their bankrupt status of abject fear
      Free man stand or Free man Fall

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      1. Doug
        And no need to wonder as to who makes the bullets and hand them over to them to fire
        No coconuts if you Answer or guess correctly

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  16. Alex Lomax , the subject is touchy for sure .
    A fair number of the rude insulting people flit from blog to blog a lot of those on WGD who hate AS are people who were regulars on WOS for years but shifted or were banned from WOS for getting in scrapes with others on WOS about AS.

    Im pretty sure a lot of those who hate AS will turn up here on this blog , they have nowhere else to go WGD decided to tell everyone to vote SNP 1&2 and those who agreed with that took strength from it attacking anyone who continued to say that ALBA was a better choice with a greater chance of success in places where SNP will almost certainly win the constituency vote.

    At the end of the day what has surprised me is that a fair few of the regulars on WGD have just disappeared without trace today whereas lots and lots of names you never see on WGD are there today wishing Paul the best of health and sending messages of support just shows there are many many people who read these blogs but do not post on them.

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    1. “A fair number of the rude insulting people flit from blog to blog a lot of those on WGD who hate AS are people who were regulars on WOS for years but shifted or were banned from WOS for getting in scrapes with others on WOS about AS”

      Ok – prove any of this complete bollox, and I mean ANY OF IT. Is that loud enough ?

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    2. The people you are referring to left Wos When he started attacking Nicola Sturgeon. They were veteran campaigners for Independence and instantly recognised what was going on.

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  17. The main problem with judging someone’s opinion by the manner they conduct their argument, is that most folk haven’t been trained in discourse ethics and stuff. Though the tone and manner of someone’s argument can indicate which values they care about the most. Such as whether they value ideology and tradition above equality in law and deliberative democracy. Or if their judgement is grounded in emotions or logic and practical reason.

    Ethics and OR: Operationalising discourse ethics
    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/13433(dot)pdf

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  18. Again, I hope folks don’t think me up myself or elitist, but it’s more than a tad exclusionary to discredit an opinion because the speaker has limited education, or little interest in political correctness and politeness. It’s also more than a tad naive, to deny Scottish social media and political blogs are hoaching with agent provocateurs acting on behalf of the British state. I see the false flags flying in greater numbers on Wings, the closer we come to emancipating ourselves.

    Rethinking Radical Politics and Ethics
    https://journals.openedition.org/appareil/904

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    1. CameronB
      100% bang on re.the naive and flag wavers
      The Dark forces of State have a simple motto
      It is better inside the tent pissing out
      Than being outside pissing in
      And there is a very strong smell of Ammonia within our tent
      Penectomise those from which such originates

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  19. There were definitely people with holiday? homes in Spain that voted Brexit. They were interviewed on telly. Migrants in Spain from Britain often complained about the migrants coming into Britain. It was totally non self aware.The EU countries often welcome migrants/asylum seeker, They help them. Spain/Italy.

    Germany has 12million migrants and their descendants. 82million pop. The highest in the world. After the USA.

    UK – Spain depends on your main residence. Where you pay taxes? It is cheaper to have residency in Spain they pay less taxes. Portugal has a special low tax deal for people relocating.

    Residents (migrants) were being turned away from Spain. Alicante airport if they did not have residency details. Some form of ID. The airport migration/border control were being over zealous.

    There is some question of how long holiday residents will be able to stay. After Brexit. In the US they can only stay a certain amount of time. (90days?). Unless they have a business. In France holiday home owners will only be able to stay 90days in a 180 day period, They will need a visa.

    Catalonia. 7.5million pop. 1 Million children? Electorate is 5.2 million? 2.2 million voted YES? 1 Million+ voters are missing. Referendum.

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