The Scottish Greens have every reason to fear the arrival of the Alba Party in their small pool. While I agree that those who have voted for them on their policies will not abandon them for Alba, many who have voted for them in protest against the SNP leadership, may well.
This stuff about Alex Salmond being unpopular in Scotland does not ring true. While Nicola Sturgeon remains far more popular than him or, indeed, any others, the YouGov poll suggests a level of popularity well within reach of gaining several list seats:
Let’s say the Alba Party only got 15% of the roughly 950 000 SNP list votes in 2016 or 142 000. The Greens got 6 MSPs from only 150 000.
Note from the poll above that a further 30% of SNP voters are only ‘somewhat unfavourable’. What if a few of them, after campaigning is underway, shifted? Alba might easily push toward 20 and a ‘super majority’ for independence parties.
Greens support independence. Greens support FM. Alba? who needs them just vote green.
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Greens do not support womens rights. If you’re a woman, or a man who cares for the women in your life, why would you vote for the Greens policies? Alba has given the women of Scotland a party they can vote for. (Aside from the Tories…..which is a step too far for Independence supporters!) I cannot vote for and have left the SNP for this very reason.
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AS expert on women
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The Greens most certain DO support women’s rights. Your real objection is that you oppose trans rights. Sadly, there are a few women who do. Fortunately, most women recognise that attacks on vulnerable minorities such as the LGBTQ are closely tied to attacks on women, and that the best thing is for us all to stick together.
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EVEN Tories ‘get it’! As just one example, see this from the Meeting of the Scottish Parliament, 20 June 2019: Official Report
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con)
“We are being asked by many whether we support trans rights or women’s rights. I think that we can do both, and it is right and proper that every one of us in this chamber does both.”
Any ‘success’ in damaging or restricting the SNP electorally in May is NO guarantee that it will prevent passage of legislation to reform the gender recognition process, as it has been reformed already in countries like Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Ireland – I believe there are more! There has been cross-party support for reform in Holyrood, as there is in Westminster too, as I understand it.
However, the precise nature of reform in Scotland CANNOT be known at present for the following (obvious) multiple reasons: (i) pre-legislative consultation is ongoing/to be reported upon on a draft Bill; (ii) a (re-drafted?) Bill has still to be formally submitted to Parliament; (iii) Stage 1 of the legislative process in Committee would then take place on the ‘principles’; (iv) detailed scrutiny would then be undertake at Stage 2 in Committee; (v) amendments can/would be tabled, debated and voted upon at different stages; before (vi) a final vote in the Chamber is taken.
So regardless of the SNP’s standing regarding a majority or not and subject to the substantial process of legislative scrutiny, amendment and parliamentary voting by the representative of the Scottish electorate still to unfold, any gender recognition reform, in whatever (uncertain) form, is a long way off!
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“Greens do not support womens rights” – come on, that is just not a credible assertion. IMHO it will just diminish credibility.
As just one example of counter evidence, see this from the Meeting of the Scottish Parliament, 03 March 2020 Official Report – International Women’s Day debate. From Patrick Harvie:
“We still have a long way to go on women’s reproductive rights, on pay, which I have mentioned, and on the experience of marginalised women, such as those in ethnic minority, trans and non-binary communities. For example, we have not taken some of the steps that are open to us on reproductive rights. Under the Abortion Act 1967, there is still no legal right to an abortion in Scotland without the permission of two doctors. Under the Scotland Act 2016, that power now sits with this devolved Parliament, as it should have done from the start. It was an anomaly to devolve all health and justice matters at the start of devolution in 1999 but to consider abortion to be an exception. Whether we regard it as a criminal matter or a health matter, it should have been part of the devolution settlement. We can, and should, now take the obvious step of decriminalisation, which many reproductive healthcare professionals have called for. Provision for late-term abortions is still not what it needs to be in this country.”
But Mr Harvie recognises the individual’s human rights too and that these matters are not simple, not easy to address.
“I was pleased to see that the motion recognises the importance of taking an intersectional approach. I think that I am right in saying that, if we agree to the motion—I hope that we will do so unanimously—it will be the first time that the Parliament has expressed a view on that.
“At its root, intersectionality is a simple and powerful idea: that we need to recognise the different ways in which inequality, prejudice and discrimination can play out. Neither people as a whole nor groups of people are homogenous. Gender inequality impacts in different ways on women who are white and on women in black and minority ethnic communities; on women who are disabled and on women who are not, on women who are well off and on women who live in poverty; on women who are trans; on those who choose to identify as cisgendered; and on those who do not hold any gender identity at all.”
Please let’s have a proper, reasoned debate free from daft statements like “”Greens do not support womens rights” !
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“given the women of Scotland a party they can vote for. (Aside from the Tories…..which is a step too far for Independence supporters!) ”
I’m lost.
Wait a minute, do you have a relative called rooth?
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I am not opposed to LGBTQ rights and I strongly object to those of you who are insinuating that I am.
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John,Re OPEN LETTER
Sent off to FM
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Alex@1:29PM
Greens support independence. <–Lie
Greens support FM <— well as long as the SNP do what we tell them
Very few will be voting Green this time. A party that is wishy-washy to ut ti politely on Independence. When was the last time wee patrick got up and demanded that Sturgeon get on with delivering #Indy? When?
The Greens- who seem to have NOTHING to say about ecology these days is simply a home for wannabe trendy weirdoes with strange sexual practices. This coming election will be your demise. Hopefully a science-based party with some PRACTICAL solutions for the environment will arise out of the pieces of shattered egos.
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Ooft, I think someone has just jumped the shark. Mind you, the Greens are more than enthusiastic in supporting the nonsense of self-ID of sex, which means they are unable to support women’s rights or social sustainability. So we can safely forget about them as a serious political party.
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Bullshit (and I note from a man). I happen to be a woman and like by far the vast majority of women, I support #LTBTQ rights and that includes trans rights. But you did nail it that the bigots are already flying to Mr. Salmond’s party in large numbers. This is a good thing.
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Women have fought a long hard fight to gain legal parity with men, and a legal identity that is autonomous from the will of man. Allowing the self-id of sex, which contradicts medical science, expands the intent of the GRA, in a manner that undoes women’s human right to a defensible legal identity. Human rights are indivisible. It is not bigoted to to point this out.
Sexism, Language, and the Law
https://researchrepository.wvu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2041&context=wvlr
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Yes, we have fought long and hard for OUR rights. We did not do that to gain the ‘right’ to oppress others, thank you.
Self-id of gender does NOT ‘contradict’ medical science’ and your refusal to use the word gender identifies your bigotry. As a woman and a lifelong advocate of women’s rights, I am quite safe in saying you are showing your bigotry. People who preach against trans rights would do well to give some thought to whom they are allying themselves with.
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/christian-right-tips-fight-transgender-rights-separate-t-lgb
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“So we can safely forget about them as a serious political party.”
But didn’t the SNP used to be a lunatic fringe party, more than enthusiastic in supporting the nonsense of self-ID of nationhood? Think we can safely forget about THEM as a serious political party?
“…unable to support women’s rights or social sustainability.”
My feminist daughter (considered reasonably attractive, just the right age to be cornered in the office by inebriated middle-aged men) and I (not so much now, but was in the 70s/80s) were talking about the “nonsense of self-ID”.
To us both, biological identity of sex is, usually, relatively easy. You either have one set of ‘bits’ or the other. The other area’s far more philosophical. For the life of us, neither of us could define what caused us to “identify as a woman” and she said the self-ID people she spoke with couldn’t either, when pinned down.
“Feel like a man/woman”? What does that even mean? Outside the physical, we couldn’t identify one idea, thought, emotion, ambition, quality of personality that we could say “Of course! No man would EVER have that.” Maybe the thought process is “if I feel things society attributes to men/women, I must be that!”
As a person-in-a-female-shaped-package (woman for short!) I want the right to feel more than safe, but a right NOT to feel vulnerable/ threatened in the presence of people bigger and stronger than I am.
Equally, I feel men who have, say, to live as women to transition have a right to be able to try on clothing, go to the toilet etc without getting beaten up.
One hard-fought-for woman’s right is to do things which society told only men could do, because if we tried our smaller brains couldn’t cope. I’ve seen some of the anti-NS comments about this. She “denies her sexuality” and surrounds herself with a “lesbian coterie”.
Do we actually WANT to sustain a society which maintains the status quo? Or do we want Scotland to be better that? Take the easy route or find a way where PEOPLE’s rights matter – no matter what their shape, age, colour, background, ability, whatever?
These questions may or may not be right. It might not be possible to find answers. But not try because the status quo doesn’t affect anybody we know?
Some of ideas are a bit airy-fairy. But then, so was independence. If their ideas of what should happen post-independence are different, I’d say that’s a good thing.
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As I’ve already pointed out, I’m not against supporting the social position of trans-individuals. But women will have to do a better job at defending their sex-based rights from the will of man, if you hope to escape the harms of sexism and cultural patriarchy. Applying a post-modern lens to biological reality may appear progressive, but doing so is actually socially regressive and dangerous for women.
https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/gender-equality-and-gender-mainstreaming
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Cameron, I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this.
I think we may be talking about different things, and are getting somewhat O/T.
BTW, I wasn’t aware that I *was* “Applying a post-modern lens to biological reality” (Principally, I confess, because I’m not up to date with all the jargon!)
I thought I was merely living according to the philosophy of people are people first and a physical entity second, as followed by my family for at least 150 years. My great grandparents seemed to skip ahead a bit and go straight to treating/educating etc girls and boys as equals, because the shape was secondary. Although they stopped before non-binary.
I agree that physical safety and rights are important and MUST be protected. It’s how to do that which is problematic.
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You seem to be in pretty deep denial that while Alex Salmond’s actions toward women were judged not to be criminal that they were abhorrent. And if you think that there are not a great many women who will remember that when they vote, you are very, very mistaken. But maybe he can win without the vote of most women. I wouldn’t count on it though. Mr. Salmond has never shown the slightest shame for his behaviour.
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I’m saying he has done a lot of good which should not be forgotten.
And, Diane above says:
Alba has given the women of Scotland a party they can vote for.
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The good was in the past. Diane seems to be anti lgbt rights.
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Fortunately, polling indicates that Diane is in the minority in opposing LGBTQ rights. I agree that in the past Mr. Salmond did good. However, his personal behaviour towards women was abhorrent. If you think most women will forget THAT, I am pretty sure you are mistaken.
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“And, Diane above says: Alba has given the women of Scotland a party they can vote for.”
Let’s be precise here: Alba is (just) ANOTHER party the women of Scotland can vote for!
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All Ladies Be Aware !!!
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No slagging off other Indy parties was the cry earlier today, now it’s lets get stuck into the Greens.
Wheesht for Alba.
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I didn’t mean to turn this thread in to a debate about the GRA amendments, but I need to defend my position. Similarly, I wouldn’t be trying to point women to a way of defending their legal rights, if I didn’t know a bit about how to support gender equality.
I’m not against supporting the social position of trans-individuals, but I don’t think it reasonable to expect women to include men in their sex-class, in order to do this. And neither did the original GRA, which refers to the legal recognition of adopted gender and no more. Gender-identity does not equate to biological sex, which is immutable and can’t be changed through cosmetic surgery, or by supporting sexist stereotypes.
WOMEN’S SPACES, WOMEN’S RIGHTS: FEMINISM AND THE TRANSGENDER RIGHTS MOVEMENT
https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/mulr/vol103/iss4/7/
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What demands would the leader of the Alba Party make of the SNP in order to win their support, should the SNP fail to win a majority in May? and the Alba Party are holding the balance of power?
Vote Alba to sack Nicola Sturgeon.
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Just say No. what happens? Nothing
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“Just say No. what happens? Nothing”
Eh?
No to what, Gordon?
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Alba’s not so hidden agenda.
West of Scotland 2nd vote green
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Scottish independence is the aim.
The greens have supported Scottish independence up to now probably in exchange for something , but what ? We dont know.
Anyway the point is Scottish independence is not top priority for the greens.
What happens if they ask for something , dont get it , and withdraw support for Scottish independence ?
Furthermore what happens if SNP do not have a majority at the time ?
The advantage of having ALBA is that their top priority is Scottish independence , if your top priority is Scottish independence and lets face it Scottish independence is a game changer for everything else , you do business with ALBA until after the Scottish independence referendum then go your own way.
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The Greens waste public monies. So do the Tories. No one is less popular than Johnston.
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Despite being asked twice in the ch 4 interview, Salm refused to back Nicola Sturgeon for FM in the new parliament, giving a Bozo type waffle answer.
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