I don’t feel well

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https://www.snp.org/history/

Like many of you, I’m sure, I’ve been trying to concentrate on the main aim -independence.

In particular, I’ve been deliberately not investigating the internal struggle over gender recognition.

Pragmatically, I’ve been thinking, hold your breath, don’t look, we’re getting close to the line, we can worry about all this stuff later.

I tell myself, they’re politicians after all but they’re no worse, probably better, than those in the other parties. Again, keep your eye on the ball.

I have been distracted in the past, writing to complain about apparently uncritical admiration for that repulsive war criminal, Hilary Clinton, suggesting we read a book by another war criminal, Henry Kissinger and then allowing a selfie to be taken with a third war criminal, Alistair Campbell.

Then today, I see the above tweeted. I thought it was a fake at first but was soon sent the link.

I’m shocked. How did this happen? Does she know about it? Did she authorise it?

My eye is still on the ball but I’m really disturbed by this>

121 thoughts on “I don’t feel well”

  3. John, as you may have gathered, I have been trying to keep up with the inquiry on Nicola Sturgeon’s role in the allegations against Alex Salmond concerning sexual misconduct. I have struggled to come up with an explanation that exculpates a First Minister with public approval ratings that most politicians would, perhaps literally, die for.
    I also struggle with the fact that the allegations made are SO serious that I find it almost impossible that, even though I am no fan of the Scottish media, to even scarcely believe these would all have been overlooked prior to September 2014 (for the record the allegations all precede the vote). Not even a SINGLE one surfaced.
    I find it impossible to believe that someone who has referred to Salmond as her “mentor”, would do this to him. Yet I have seen emails which appear to be emanate from people close to the First Minister. One refers to “getting” Alex Salmond.
    I have seen references to Salmond being apparently written out of the history of the SNP. Yet just last night in an interview with Finlan O’Toole, she said “Nobody can reduce Salmondā€™s impact on independence movement”. And now this …….
    I have an acquaintance who is a long term SNP member and knows many senior people, who is a member of the “Nicola Loyal”, who tells me that she has spoken with several senior officials in constituencies and they all back Nicola. I dare say they may be carefully selected, or the circles she moves in, but if not, I wonder how far that support could be stretched?
    I feel your pain, but having paid attention to the “alternative” view, while this horrifies me as much as it does you, I’m sorry it doesn’t surprise me. I’m not sure this has been done with the FM’s knowledge far less approval, but it is a good indication of the brazenness with which some of those around her are operating. In effect it is, as the grafitti during the Days of May when the French students managed to bring down DeGaulle. “Do no adjust your head. There is a fault in reality”.

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      1. Now looks like an ill judged knee jerk reaction after Alex Salmond’s resignation. Would have been better to have left nicola out as well. Page has been there since 280918

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    2. Briefly visited WOS where some on Twitter were almost ‘gleefully’ stating that 40k people have left the SNP in the last year or so as some vindication of her ‘alleged’ misdeeds/vendetta against Salmond which to my mind has simply done the dirty work for the MSmedia. I can only assume that those will not be voting SNP at the next Holyrood elections in which case the MSmedia will claim that support for the SNP is waning and also by association for Indy as well and the damage will have been done.
      Like many in the Party I had/still have the greatest respect for AS but the biggest obstacle I came across on the door steps in 2014 was that many women did not trust him and would not vote for Indy which is borne out by the stats. With that in mind Sturgeon facing the prospect AS was perhaps guilty of multiple accusations of serious sexual misconduct in my mind had no option but either to instigate or allow prosecutions to proceed. In my view failure to do otherwise would have had even more serious repercussions for her and the SNP given the very hostlie MSmedia.

      Some in the Party mistakenly see this as treacherous which saddens me.

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      2. Gerry R. Yes during 2014 many people had no time for AS. The media had worked a number on him. They liked to tell us that he was a divisive figure. During tge first debate with Darling at one point AS didnt have answer he just stood there speechless. AS made a come back during the 2nd debate. But damage was done.

        Off recent events, my plumber thinks he has taken money.

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      4. @CameronB
        I’m female and I agree. Let’s wait and see – at least until after the election that WM seems keen to stop if it can’t win.

        My daughter – co-incidentally also a female – thinks the same and she’s what some people would call a rabid feminist.

        I also agree with stewartb that we should wait until the enquiry’s complete and we’re in possession of all the facts.

        Having read some of the comments btl on Mr Dangerfield’s website, I find them disturbing. Not what’s being said by him – I’ll hold judgement on that until I read the report. If proven true, action needs to be taken. By a full, Scottish enquiry. AFTER independence.

        Some of the comments though: as soon as I knew who the women were I knew they were lying, I can’t find the one about the feminist perverts to quote it properly, but NS has a protective feminist circle and can get her “girlfriend” to sort it for her. They were aggressive, nasty and apart from “we shouldn’t try to identify the women” they seemed to pass unchallenged.

        Of course, if my daughter said that to some of the btl crowd on Mr Dangerfield’s site, it disturbs me (as a mother) that there are men out there who’d quite possibly give her the same sort of response.

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    1. I think I know what you mean. I read Wings and Craig Murray.I find it deeply troubling though I feel pretty sure I know what are the facts.

      I doubt that there will be a revolution, more likely, given the circumstances. that there will be an attritional, damaging prising from power

      I thought I could not vote for the party in May. Now, I will but not for the list. The party has a great mess to clean up. That needs to be clearly stated and now. As loudly as possible.

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      1. Sam ,If Scottish independence is your number one
        Both votes SNP
        Doesnā€™t matter who the leader is
        Once Scotland is independent we will have regular changes of leader

        Nicola Sturgeon
        Alex Salmond
        John Swinney
        Bob Dylan

        I donā€™t care who leads us to Scottish independence because it doesnā€™t matter who does it

        What matters is that we give both votes to Scottish independence and that means both votes to SNP for maximum effect maximum success

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        1. Terence Callachan, both votes to the SNP? Really? It has been shown time and again giving your list vote to the SNP is (in most cases) a waste of time.It only gives seats to the unionist parties. ISP on the list it has to be if you want to pack Holyrood full of independence supporting MSPs. What better than a pro-independence opposition holding the SNP to account and keeping their feet to the fire.

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  8. DĆ² you know, I think we all need to switch off and stay away from Twitter, Facebook and the MSM for at least the next month, maybe even to May. I really don’t know where all this stuff is coming from but I find it too much of a coincidence given recent polls and I can’t help feeling Gove & and others are in somewhere stirring the pot. For the next while Ƭ am only going to read positive posts about what Scotland is achieving and try to clear my head of all the doubt and despair that has been building up these past few months. I wish you aÄŗl we’ll and hope life looks better soon

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    1. Broob
      United we stand,diveded we fall
      Free man stand or free man fa
      Wha will fill a traitors grave
      Let them turn and flee
      Scotland cross we shall all draw
      Upon the ballot paper
      If we don’t then tis chains and slavery

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  9. I am for independence.
    I am from a generation somewhat inured to political chicanery and media manipulation.
    I have seen great newspapers like the Home Rule backing Scotsman ransacked and looted by “owners” and reduced to a yellow page propaganda sheet for Anglo-British interests.
    I dont believe a fraction of the guff that appears on-line.
    MI5 and the security services will be, and are, all over Scotland with fakery, lies and news manipulation.

    I am for independence and will vote for ANYONE who is willing to lead us there.
    I am for Scotland, no matter its foibles and small faults. They will be easily rectified by the good nature and common sense of the Scottish people.

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  10. John, you are right to feel sick, but the situation in the SNP is MUCH worse than something quite as simple as a re-written history in which Alex Salmond in 2014 is a non-person. However this is symptomatic of a number of interwoven strands involving various types of corruption at the top of the party, both leadership and employees and the SG Civil Service, all compounded by entryism on the part of a self-interest faction intent on trans-activism rather than independence. This entryist faction skilfully acquired power and influence within the party – winning internal elected posts and essentially dictating the party’s direction. They established a mutual dependency between the faction and elements of the party leadership, and deployed aggressive online tactics against those they perceived as enemies. What we may be witnessing now is a “last stand” for this unholy alliance. If not it could be a last stand for the SNP as we know it. Many people in the party are aware of what has occurred and are attempting to do something about it – witness the Wings article today “The stealing of the SNP” written by a prominent SNP councillor. John, you are right to feel sick as the title of this post states, you just couldn’t make this up, it is all true as far as I can see. For an overview read a Wings article by Robin MacAlpine last week and maybe Craig Murray’s affadavits to the court on his blog site.

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    1. “For an overview read a Wings article by Robin MacAlpine last week and maybe Craig Murrayā€™s affadavits to the court on his blog site.”

      Respectfully, for an informed and objective view read or listen to the evidence put before the parliamentary committee; wait until the main characters (Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon) give their evidence under oath to and are interrogated by the Parliamentary Committee; wait to read the final, considered report of that Committee (and any minority report that may result); and also wait to read the independent report regarding the investigation into any breaches of the Ministerial Code.

      And if you haven’t the patience to wait for these doing nothing, in the interim you could analyse critically the various sources you mention. You might use mind-mapping software to plot out the number elements and complexity of relationships between the claimed participating ‘conspirators’ – and then as a thought experiment perhaps reflect on the wisdom of Occam’s Razor.

      In the meantime, I’ll be waiting for the formal processes already in train to take their course and I’ll condemn – to the degree I judge is merited – any wrongdoing and wrong do’ers at the appropriate time. (Although I did read one tweet recently suggesting the Parliamentary Committee was also part of ‘the’ conspiracy.)

      As a supporter of Scottish independence – and given that the need for a democratic event to enable this is to be achieved is urgent, that opportunities to have such an event may be closed down by Westminster actions if we don’t have it soon and/or would disappear probably for my lifetime without a successful SNP – my votes in May’s elections are already decided and securely so.

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  11. You do so much hard work that I feel unable to express my full anger here lest it detract from the sites goood work.

    I post elsewhere on that topic. I’m angry, very angry and I cannot understand why so many SNP MSPs remain silent, who let it continue, who condone the theft of a Party and movement.

    šŸ˜„šŸ˜¢

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  13. If you listen to the Gordon Dangerfield interviews it is clear that Leslie Evans is one of the people being interviewed and investigated by the committee. Its a bit strange that she is also the one responsible for redacting the various documents and deciding what they see!
    According to GD the committee is set up to fail .

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    1. She was also responsible for finding out who leaked the Daily Record article. Guess what she couldn’t. It was Liz Lloyd by the way, hours after the civil case collapsed. How odd. Nicola Sturgeon’s chief of staff leaks info which the court was about to be prohibit being released and NS knew nothing about it!
      How odd Liz Lloyd is allowed to not give evidence to the enquiry.
      In fact all her messages are being hidden. How odd.
      Funny no one has taken Craig Murray to court for his testimony.
      It was a clear challenge to all those he accused, including NS, ‘OK if i am wrong prove it in court’. Silence.
      There has been total media blackout, not one ‘alleged by tin-foil hat ex-ambassador’. Not one unionist attack dog. Why is that. They have reported his trial but not one so far has mentioned his testimony. How odd.
      What on earth do you NS devotees think that Alex Salmond is going to say when he takes the stand. If you don’t like what CM said you had better get your head a bit deeper in the sand pit when AS takes the stand.
      Apparently CM can’t comment on his trial until the verdict is announced so get your spade ready for that to. You might even need a new sand delivery.

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  14. Come on people you canā€™t be serious ?
    On the basis of this piece you think that the SNP and Nicola sturgeon are rewriting the history books and trying to airbrush Alex Salmond form history ?

    No you can be serious

    If you know the internet and how easy it is to put stuff on it and how common it is for junior staff to be the ones who write it then you will know that this is simply a current perspective saying that Nicola sturgeon spearheaded the SNP visits to communities during the YES campaign

    Thatā€™s all it is
    You would have to be drunk or overreactive to see anything suspect in this piece

    For heavens sake get a grip donā€™t join the WOS brigade

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  15. Come on people
    Look at the real evidence of what the SNP and Nicola sturgeon are doing
    They are having an election even though britnat world is trying to stop it
    They are having a referendum even though britnat world is trying to stop them
    Nicola gets up there day in day out for Scotland for Scotlandā€™s people you included and deals with the most disgraceful journalism weā€™ve ever seen trying every day to trap her into saying things so they can record and broadcast it

    And yet the dregs of britnatery somehow still manage to infiltrate your minds and turn you against your own country your own leader your only hope of Scottish independence
    Stand firm
    Donā€™t be weak
    Donā€™t be easily influenced by dross like this

    Mr Robertson , youā€™ve circled a sentence !
    Written by whom ?
    Who instructed it be written ?
    You have no idea
    itā€™s internet
    And yet you jump in panic to Nicola sturgeon must be a spy
    Holy Moly get a grip

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    1. “Mr Robertson , youā€™ve circled a sentence !”

      Assuming Ms Sturgeon didn’t actually write it (but maybe it’s even worse and she did actually pen this herself!), surely Terence you’re ignoring the fact that even after a very long, hard day running the country the FM would have scheduled an hour or so of her time of an evening – leaving her usual bed-time reading aside for once – and devoted this time to carefully proof-read/edit the text of this history.

      It is simply untenable to think she that she wouldn’t have done this. So therefore she must have seen it and personally – and I emphasise this, personally – passed it for publication!

      And anyway Terence you only have to look at all the other ‘bad’ things she’s been proven beyond any reasonable doubt to have done: so given all that weight of irrefutable evidence against her, isn’t it just more likely that she did this ‘bad’ thing too.

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    2. Alex Salmond has not been airbrushed from history – he’s on the SNP Wikipedia page.

      The SNP.org site history webpage first appeared on 28/09/2018.
      It would seem that nobody including AS has looked at it or presumably they would have complained earlier.

      Hard to believe it’s a serious attempt to airbrush AS.at a time when he was front page news everywhere.

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  16. I appreciate that gender politics appears to be a distraction from independence, but the SNP has been over-run by entryists who are hostile towards liberal science and the Natural law. So the party now shares pretty much the same ideological position as English Torydum.

    Those with an interest in finding out more about the costs of entrenching misogyny into Scots law, could do worse than checking out the “Economic Benefits of Gender Equality in the European Union”.

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    1. I’ve been pondering the distinctive way you frame the motivation for readers to delve into the sources/topics you advise.

      Initially you seem offer up (your own) pre-formed conclusions, presented – as much as we can read – as assertion rather than evidence. You choose not even to frame your preface as an hypothesis which the sources you refer to would assist in testing. Rather there seems to be an implication that your opening remarks will be seen as uncontentious by most and from this staring point of general acceptance, we could/should delve into your recommended sources to learn more.

      It is an interesting approach: not one I personally have found compelling so far. But I’ll keep reading for a bit longer!

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      2. My training to join Royal Town Planning Institute prepared me to defend natal women from genderwoowoo. I’m very rusty though, and certainly wouldn’t claim to be particularly good at articulating the essence of critical political science. I am doing my best to point folks towards a cognitive understanding of democracy though, and in a manner that does not overly influence the reader. As I was trained to leave the learning process in the hands of the learner.

        As such, I’d suggest folk could do a lot worse than checking out “The politics of legal empowerment Legal mobilisation strategies and implications for development”, published by the Overseas Development Institute.

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  18. Here’s an extract from an article about British propaganda during the Troubles in NI

    From this point on, Britain’s propaganda war entered a new phase. Stories spun to journalists became ever more outlandish and even comical.
    Take the following story which appeared in the News of the World that same year, headlined: “Russia in IRA plot sensation.”
    It read: “Intelligence agents have discovered that the Russian Government is directly involved in the supply of rocket launchers and other arms to the IRA.
    “A sinister dossier of evidence includes: MYSTERY landings by men in Eire from a submarine; SIGHTING of a Soviet tanker and submarine close to the coast in suspicious circumstances; An OCTOBER visit to Dublin by a notorious Kremlin agent; ACTIVITIES of a one-eyed American in the city.”
    A man in the thick of it all was Colin Wallace, an IPU army press officer based at the Lisburn HQ, who admits to having spun – if not entirely created – many of the stories passed to journalists.
    A highly controversial figure, he remembers spreading “news” that both IRA and loyalist paramilitaries had become involved in witchcraft and black magic. He even went as far as planting “black altars” in certain areas and going to great lengths to get the “props” that went with them.
    “We used to collect chicken blood from the cook house at the army barracks and put that on the altars so it looked like there had been a sacrifice or something,” he says. “It was made to look really horrible.”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8577087.stm

    Food for thought

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  19. Further thoughts on propaganda

    “the most effective media as a rule (for messages other than the simplest of commercial advertising) are not the impersonal mass media like electronic and printed newspapers and news services and television but rather those few associations or organizations (reference groups) with which individuals feel identified or to which they aspire to relate their identity. Quite often, ordinary people not only avoid but actively distrust the mass media or fail to understand their messages, but in the warmth of a reference group they feel at home, assume that they understand what is going on, and feel that they are sure to receive a certain degree of emotional response and personal protection. The foremost reference group, of course, is the family. But many other groups perform analogous functionsā€”for instance, the group of sports fans, the church, the trade union, the club, the alumni group, the clique or gang. By influencing the key members of such a group, propagandists may establish a ā€œsocial relayā€ channel that can amplify their message. By thus concentrating on the few, they increase their chances of reaching the manyā€”often far more effectively than they could through a plethora of communications aimed at larger audiences. Therefore, one important stratagem involves the combined use of mass media and reference-group channelsā€”preparing materials for such media as news releases or broadcasts in ways designed specifically to reach certain groups (and especially their elites and leaders), who can then relay the messages to other sets of reactors” https://www.britannica.com/topic/propaganda/Media-of-propaganda

    Propaganda – smear, start rumours, cause dissent, doubt and dissatisfaction, divide opinion, divide and conquer
    Or – keep the heid!

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  20. As I remember Alex Salmond specifically wanted an organization for independence that was not tied to any particular party. That was why NONE of the top echelon of SNP were prominent in the YES movement.

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  21. You need a political party to progress politics
    We already have the Scottish independence movement that is not tied to the SNP or other partyā€™s

    Of course we want our SNP top politicians to be involved thatā€™s why we elected them for gods sake

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  22. Still vote SNP, still vote Yes. Independence far more important than any individual. I believe the majority of people in Scotland would agree. If NS was to go and someone like Joanna Cherry took over it would boost the independence movement even further.

    Senior british nationalist civil servants, appointed by Westminster, still in place in Holyrood, by the way.

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    1. “If NS was to go and someone like Joanna Cherry took over it would boost the independence movement even further.”

      Really, NS has gained very high public approval.

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      1. Sorry, just noticed you wrote “independence movement”

        Just don’t see that, NS is very popular within the party and movement. The disciples of the Bath based blogger are a minority. Many are not even supporters of independence.

        As for the voters. NS has gained very high voter aproval the party are riding high and independence is the “settled will ” . . . . It’s all there.

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  23. Professor Robertson, you have my sympathies. As a life long independence supporter I had my head in the sand for a very long time. Complete denial. Finally, thanks to the bravery and tenacity of many of our excellent Scottish bloggers, my eyes are now wide open. Devastated to say it, but Nicola needs to go and forthwith.

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  24. The Heraldā€¦
    Comments 20ā€¦britnats except for 3 or 4
    All saying Nicola sturgeon must be stopped from giving covid briefings

    Fantastic
    Scottish independence is winning
    Nicola Sturgeon is winning
    The britnats as usual target our winners

    As usual when asked why Boris Johnston is allowed to give briefings but Nicola shouldnā€™t be
    The britnats say because heā€™s the leader of ā€œ THE COUNTRY ā€œ
    Whenever I hear someone say the leader of ā€œ the countryā€ I know they donā€™t mean Scotland

    they mean U.K. Britain England all three are the same to these people they see Scotland as a county like Derbyshire or Shropshire weā€™ve seen the well known video of that MP the woman who in Westminster parliament said exactly the same thing

    Keep steady , control your mind donā€™t be taken in by nonsense like this , support your leader Nicola sturgeon does a magnificent job thatā€™s why they want rid of her
    We want to keep her
    We will keep her
    WE decide
    Not them
    We have the majority now
    Take the fight to them

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  25. We now have wings over Scotland saying get rid of Nicola sturgeon because she doesnā€™t really want Scottish independence and is working secretly for the britnats
    AND
    Talkingupscotland two saying Nicola sturgeon is trying to airbrush Alex Salmond from SNP / YES movement history presumably because sheā€™s secretly against Scottish independence
    AND the herald newspaper holding a vote on should Nicola sturgeon be stopped from holding covid briefings each day presumably because sheā€™s doing such a good job that the britnat herald want rid of her or are we supposed to believe they want rid of her because sheā€™s doing such a bad job ? given that the world has praised her for her clear concise briefings are we to believe itā€™s only people in her own country that donā€™t think so ? Or this part of Westminsterā€™s propaganda war against us

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    1. It’s hard to tell what is going on isn’t it? Just read a tweet saying “”It’s the “softly, softl, catch a monkey” approach from SNP thinking if we just do small tweaks to things people would prefer that. Completely missing the point that we despise how things are now and want radical change that independence can bring” but surely we have to take into account the need to win over a majority rather than moving at the pace the already committed are demanding. Yes it can be frustrating but those last 20 polls show things are shifting as a result of this approach (and other factors too I’m sure).

      Have spent a morning reading up on propaganda, destabilisation, divide & rule etc – feeling pretty politically naive but all the more determined to trust my instincts. I’m with Stewartb and gavinochiltree & you Terence on this one – after May we can think again if things need to change

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  27. Clydebuilt
    Stewartb

    Geez guys for heavens sake Iā€™m an old geezer 65 I donā€™t cotton on to things as well as I used to
    You had me
    I really didnā€™t know you were fooling around being sarcastic

    Sorry if my replies were a bit caustic Iā€™m possessed by Scottish independence for my family my friends my neighbours for justice and the freedom every country every person is entitled to.
    Itā€™s just plain wrong that Westminster controls all our money wealth politics and that Westminster decides what we can control ourselves as if a whole nation is a little child not capable of making its own way in the world

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  28. It is amusing to see the very people who are so outraged by the disgraceful treatment of an innocent Alex Salmond, do exactly the same to an innocent Nicola Sturgeon. The enthusiastic participation in the pile on against the ā€œcorruptā€ Scottish Government in general and ā€œSturgeonā€ in particular on Craig Murray and Wings is a sight to behold. I mean John Swinney corrupt? Jings.

    I believe the plot against Alex Salmond was initiated by British Civil Servants loyal to the U.K. whilst serving the Scottish Government. A UK civil servant was appointed in a created senior position and did nothing in her role but investigate allegations against Alex Salmond. Most of the accusers report to the U.K. Government. When serious allegations arose what was Nicola Sturgeon supposed to do?

    Victims were encouraged to give evidence? Is that not frequently the case in rape cases?

    Investigation was encouraged? Right and proper.

    In my opinion there is absolutely zero chance that Nicola Sturgeon initiated this plot. Zero. It originated elsewhere. The whole thing is just so ā€œnot Scottishā€, not ā€œPresbyterianā€. Most Scots recognise this. She would have had it out direct if there was an issue. However, it fits well with Machiavellian types who reside elsewhere.

    They may well bring down Nicola Sturgeon. It may be even be a preferable outcome to some of the other ā€œBlack Swanā€ events they could be planning in the next three months. However, I have a feeling it could rebound badly on them if they do. After all, she has saved many thousands of Scottish lives, as the Prof says. I am so grateful to her.

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    1. Black Donald , whit ?
      What are you doing ? Took the words right out of my mouth you did
      But you put them together better than I could have

      Bravo well done Black Donald I agree with everything you said

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  29. Took a while to work out. Technically Alex resigned in 2014. The statement is in 2018. Quite factual.

    The Inquiry is just a waste of time and money. No one did anything wrong. The women and the police did not want to go on with any charges. The authorities were told the charges would not stand up in Court. Nicola stayed out of it. According to the Code of conduct. She does not need any of it. No one needs the stress of it.

    Lesley Evans and the Lord Advocate just wasted Ā£Millions of public money. Westminster appointees.

    Everyone is sick of it or does not give a damn. Just give an apology, compensation and finish it. Too many prima donnas jumping on the bandwagon for some cheap publicity.

    There are far more important things to be worrying about. People are dying in a pandemic. Brexit is ruining the economy.

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  30. For all the blokes who are still maintaining we can get indy done, then worry about the rest later, do your female family members share your myopic outlook?

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    4. CameronB Brodie , sorry mate but there is nothing shortsighted about Scottish independence being top of the list of important things to do.

      By the way , yes my female mainly members think this too

      By the way Cameron , you donā€™t say ? what is it that you think blokes are being shortsighted about ?

      I could guess
      But Iā€™d like you to SAY what you meant , if you dare

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  31. ‘If my affidavits were not the truth, why would I go to court to try and force the release of messages that would then show I am lying?
    If Nicola is telling the truth, why still hide the messages, Geoff Aberdein’s evidence and the legal advice?….
    The paper evidence implicates her husband, chief of staff, private secretary, permanent secretary, chief operating officer of the party and several of her closest colleagues. But she herself knew nothing?’
    (Craig Murray)

    If she didn’t know she is totally incompetent.

    Do you think this person will get us independence. She is compromised.
    She couldn’t close down for christmas and we are expecting her to fight against the British state. She of the asking nicely ‘gold standard’.
    She now is leader of a personality party.

    Talking Up Scotland does not mean talking up Nicola Sturgeon. She is not Scotland.

    Every day the chaos gets worse. If you can’t see this you are not looking or are too afraid to look.
    Don’t be scared this isn’t Stuart Campbell this is SNP Cllr Chris McEleny
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-stealing-of-the-snp/

    and can’t be read without this below and believe me this is so disgusting you may have to skim the posts from the newly ‘elected’ Co Vice-Convener of out for Indy. This person will be giving input on the transphobia definition tomorrow.
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-importance-of-kindness/

    Meanwhile Gareth Wardell (Grousebeater) who is terminally ill received no such forgiveness for ridiculous accusations against him. It couldn’t be that transgender fanatics are loyal to NS could it? Any similarities to Proud Boys? No, it is all a conspiracy theory.
    https://randompublicjournal.com/2018/11/05/the-grouse-beater-accusation/

    I feel ill and it is getting worse every day, thinking she could get away with this but destroy Scotland in the process.

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        1. Terence Callachan

          That is really not the point at all. It is a serious approach to selectively killing cancer cells.

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    2. anandprasat , you make a crucial mistake in assuming that is saying this

      ā€œ If my affidavits were not the truth, why would I go to court to try and force the release of messages that would then show I am lying?
      If Nicola is telling the truth, why still hide the messages, Geoff Aberdeinā€™s evidence and the legal advice?ā€¦.
      The paper evidence implicates her husband, chief of staff, private secretary, permanent secretary, chief operating officer of the party and several of her closest colleagues. But she herself knew nothing?ā€™ ā€œ

      All of this you mention is hearsay , itā€™s never come directly from Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon and even the information from Alex Salmond solicitor came via a newspaper report so itā€™s accuracy is very very much in doubt given that there is practically nothing you can trust to be correct in British newspapers these days.

      What you should do anandprasat is what near everyone else is doing , wait until the final report of the enquiry is out instead of reading other peopleā€™s opinions about what they think has happened.

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    3. anandprasat , as for your links , honestly , WOS is nuts itā€™s crazy , if you read whatā€™s on there these days and believe it give yourself a shake.

      Councillors ? I know councillors who take the job for the money they donā€™t support the party they are representing and actually vote for a different party ! Donā€™t get me started on councillors .

      I agree Grousebeater was treated wrongly , before that happened I read a lot of his stuff and agreed with him but gradually heā€™s joined WOS in the crazy house.

      As Iā€™ve said already , wait til you see the outcome of the investigation which will supply details of the evidence examined then we will see whatā€™s been happening and we can make our own judgements.

      Remember prior to the Alex Salmond trial how many people jumped on the bandwagon tv stations radio all the newspapers comparing him with murderers rapists I remember it well then when he was found not guilty they all changed their tune , then a different group took up the cudgel and carried on claiming he was guilty , we didnā€™t see the police jumping into action to warn them or court cases against them for defamation because it was done through the likes of womenā€™s aid , whoā€™s gonna take them to court , nobody, itā€™s pretty much stopped now and thatā€™s because these people , the same people are now after Nicola sturgeon , if you donā€™t see that you are not paying attention.
      If you read the newspapers watch BBC STV SKY listen to the radio your head will be filled with lies and innuendo .

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  32. Misogyny runs deep with culture. Natal women have fought a very hard fight to gain legal parity with men. Introducing anti-foundational ideology into Scots law to enable men to colonise womanhood, would undermine all of this effort. As well as the potential for justice in and for Scotland.

    Genderwoowoo denies reality in the same way that British nationalism does.

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    2. CameronB Brodie , I agree but , nothing of the kind has been introduced in Scotland.
      I think the death penalty being introduced in Scotland now would be terrible , there are many people who say they would want it.
      I do not see that as reason to cancel Scottish independence or delay it .
      Matters can be considered , discussed , decided alongside progression to Scottish independence and for you and others to say it cannot is disingenuous .

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  33. Younger women (the future) support gender ID. Mothers of people who are entitled to self ID. The future. Young people support it.

    A minute proportion of the population.

    The SNP Gov has done much to support women. Baby boxes, nursery provision, carers allowance, social care, equal pay, flexi hours, women representation. The list is endless.

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  35. Ok, what I think you’re saying is that trans folk threaten hard won women’s rights. I would count myself as a feminist but this “threat” is so far down my list of things to worry about that I don’t think I can even get into a debate about it. i accept you feel strongly about this issue and hope you can accept my views in turn.

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    1. brobb , CameronB Brodie has brought this gender ID topic straight from wings over Scotland where he and others have talked about a grave threat more important than anything else discussed there , for months and months .
      My conclusion reading wings over Scotland for two years or so is that gender ID was discussed mostly by the men on wos rarely is there a womanā€™s input

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      1. I know, it’s why I stopped reading the posts. Really hope they go ahead with a wings party soon so they can go out and fight their corner without destroying a party many of us still strongly support. I don’t see why they should get to dictate the agenda here though – I love a good debate but there has to be an acceptance if different views no matter how strongly you feel about something

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      2. ‘gender ID was discussed mostly by the men on wos rarely is there a womanā€™s input’
        Are you saying gender id is not a woman’s issue or are you just obsessed with Wings?
        If former you are too far into the sand to get out.
        If latter so what?

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  36. There is a need to do something for women who co habit (the majority). Married women have equal rights to a half. Co habitee women have no automatic rights. They have to make a claim (1/3?) within a year and fight through court. It costs Ā£thousands. There is no legal aid. It has to be paid back in any case. Abused women have to stay in bad situations. Or leave their home worse off. Rental agencies, illegally, demand 6 month up front rent. Even with Ā£thousands in the bank and excellent credit references.

    There have been representation and consultation for years but nothing has been done. The legal profession makes money out of it. Many of them disagree with the situation.

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  37. Transpeople threaten no one. Just a complete lie. They are usually the gentlest of people. Denied equal rights. They deserve the same rights as everyone. The should be treated with compassion and understanding. One day they will.

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      1. Lucky White Heather , takes all kinds , perhaps Leeze is a nice person ? How would I know Iā€™ve not met them know nothing of them but the link you supply doesnā€™t give a good impression but that doesnā€™t mean all trans people are like him , theyā€™re not just like not all people anywhere are the same, we are all different across the world and thatā€™s okay , itā€™s the way itā€™s meant to be , of course not everyone agrees as we see when gender ID is discussed.

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    2. Gordon
      Very true and to add
      That many ancient cultures not only tolerated but honoured them
      Buddhism
      When a modern leading Buddhist philosopher was ask why he would not condemn a Male to Female transexual
      He gave this reply
      Never because not only are they special but so fortunate that in a previous they must have been a woman and now they fully understand
      What it is like for both man and woman to exist in society
      Something we cannot ever know or feel what the opposite sex expierence

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  38. Those who still can’t see Scots law is being disabled so as to support irrational ideology, could do worse than checking out “Gender equality bargaining: Developing theory and practice”. Which is published by SAGE and investigates industrial relations and the mainstreaming of “ā€˜gender equality bargaining”.

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    1. With regards Scot,law
      I once was in discussion with a top retired lawyer and to said to him,is it not such a terrible shame that we Scot,s are allowing it to wither on the vine
      His reply was most certainty so because at its root are many good things which are very fair
      And make good old common sense
      We allow this to continue at our peril

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    2. CameronB Brodie , I am one

      who still canā€™t see Scots law is being disabled so as to support irrational ideology

      I think you are wrong

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  39. P.S. I’ve never claimed trans individuals pose a threat to women or Scotland. It’s ‘our’ legal Establishment who are determined to undermine the potential for open democracy in Scotland.

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    1. Apologies if I picked you up wrong there Cameron – when you said “Natal women have fought a very hard fight to gain legal parity with men. Introducing anti-foundational ideology into Scots law to enable men to colonise womanhood, would undermine all of this effort.” I thought you were saying women were under threat because of trans rights but I understand it is potential law change you feel is a threat. My gut feeling is that other changes to the law eg women’s suffrage, black and ethnic minorities rights across the world etc were all viewed at one point as a threat to existing laws and rights by those who didn’t agree with them? But as I said I’m not particularly engaged in the debate, and this is probably not the best place for it anyway as folk come here to discuss other issues

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      1. All legal systems need to refer to a foundational moral theory, if they hope to be universal in outlook and application. Fortunately, the Natural law provides such a theory that is also compatible with cognitive linguistics and bio-neurological science. As such, it is amenable to all cultures and so plays a foundational role in international human rights law. This is why Westminster and agents of Westminster have no time for it.

        Law also needs to be cognitive if it wants to be considered law. Non-cognitive law tends towards excessive legal instrumental-ism that supports government through force, a.k.a. eugenics (see Nazi Germany).

        Genderwoowoo is concentrated neo-liberal theory and practice that demands that Scots law rejects medical philosophy and bioethics. Those who don’t see the danger presented by this could do worse than checking out the “SOCIAL COGNITIVE THEORY OF GENDER DEVELOPMENT AND DIFFERENTIATION”.

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  40. Those who place party loyalty and a desire for independence above the basic requirements of democracy, could do a lot worse than checking out “The gender of representation: On democracy, equality, and parity”. Which is published in the International Journal of Constitutional Law, and examines the essential role that gender equality plays in a democratic state.

    Denying women a defensible legal identity is pretty much the same ideological position that Westminster adopts towards Scotland.

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    1. CameronB Brodie ,

      Those who think gender ID an ever changing subject that requires constant review should be placed above Scottish independence which will happen once and once only should consider that

      Denying people of Scotland a defensible legal identity is pretty much the same ideological position that Westminster adopts towards Scotland.

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  41. Are you old enough to remember MAGAs (Trump supporters for you youngsters) who when confronted with Trump lies replied ‘I don’t care’.
    Are you old enough to remember when Trump said ‘I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldnā€™t lose voters’.
    Ahumm. Do you see it yet?
    When you see how Liz Lloyd fits into this, you can’t unsee it.

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    1. You could probably say the same thing for WoS, supporters there seem willing to believe whatever he writes. I think we are all getting entrenched in our own silos but we’re not going to win over anyone by shouting them down or insisting they’re blind, stupid or deluded. Maybe it’s time for a party slip to allow both factions the chance to win backing and go on from there if we really can’t set aside differences until May and our best chance for some time to win an outright majority for independence?

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      1. ‘You could probably say the same thing for WoS, supporters there seem willing to believe whatever he writes’

        Totally agree. You can say that about everyone. Did you have a point?
        Is there some fact that you would like to argue.
        Can’t you see that a committee is in process, set up by Sturgeon herself, in fact two of them. This isn’t going away. Salmond gives his evidence in 2 weeks. It will be damning. It has to be sorted well before May.

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  42. There are many many issues that require immediate attention some that will save lives and yet no it is not those issues that this large group target

    They target gender ID ?

    In my opinion CameronB Brodie and the others on WOS who constantly complain about the discussion of gender ID are purposely causing distraction not because they worry about the safety of women but for political reasons , never in my 65 years of life have I seen so many men showing such grave concern for womenā€™s safety I think a lot of them are fake , I believe some of them are britnats and others just have an axe to grind.

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    1. So you’ve no practical insight worthy of mention, yet you appear determined to deny natal women a defensible legal identity. So I think you could do with checking out “Bioethics and the Human Goods: An Introduction to Natural Law Bioethics”, which you can find an open access source on ncbi(dot)nlm(dot)nih(dot)gov.

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  44. Remember London Calling, that superb documentary on UK propaganda in lead up to Indyref 2014. There was a section on the personalization and demonisation of Alex Salmond. I think John was a contributor to that section. The highlight for me was that infamous interview by Paxman ‘i am not talking about the SNP i am talking about you’ Paxman proclaims, he thinks cleverly, as he suddenly heard the sound of clack behind him as he realises the sound is of the trap closing behind him. Oh well that is how i saw it.
    But remembering that and then look at the SNP website today

    Don’t worry folks i am sure the unionist have so many weapons they will never think to use that one again. I am sure that dependence on one person could never backfire.

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  45. Grousebeater comment could equally apply to WoS though I’m sure supporters there would argue they are not blind followers. If you really can’t see past all this you still have time and presumably backing to strike out with a new party. No two of us posting here will think the same on every issue but the consensus here seems to be we would prefer to continue with NS until after the elections. It’s good to be able to exchange views as we have done today, we all benefit fro hearing alternative voices, but I don’t think any of us are going to be bulldozed into changing tack. I sincerely wish you all the best if you do break free and will watch with interest to see how it all pans out

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      1. Of course it’s allowed but from my viewpoint he is asking for folk to take on board what he is saying without the responsibilities involved in leading a political party). Ok that’s not a vote but surely he does need to accept there will be folk who don’t share his view?. In a way he has an advantage as he can say whatever he wants and express his feelings forcefully without being in a public position where he is held accountable. Don’t get me wrong, I think he has contributed loads to the Indy movement but politicians have to play by certain rules (unless you’re a Tory with a party majority and emergency powers to do what you want) . And this is just me as an individual expressing my point of view which you are free to ignore, so no hard feelings from me about this discussion

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    2. Yes, alternative opinion stimulates democracy. Alternative facts that deny reality supports dictatorship (see Trump).

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